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Here is a truth every job shop knows, and sometimes customers (potential and existing) seem to forget: Quoting isn’t free.
Preparing quotes is costly because it consumes the attention of knowledgeable staff members who could otherwise be giving attention (to existing) paying jobs.
Customers (potential and existing) want the best pricing and delivery times they can get, economics 101, right? The belief is that sending out RFQ’s (bids), will cause job shops to yield the lowest pricing they are willing to take to “win” the RFQ, thus providing the customer (buyer) his pick of RFQ responses with the lowest pricing available. The truth is, that is not always the case. Every shop is different when it comes to employees, availability, scheduling, capability, tooling, raw material availability & delivery, machinability and of course machines themselves, thus pricing may vary greatly. However, it is a necessary process to ensure your job schedule remains booked and securing the financial future of your business.
So, when CrossWind receives an RFQ, we (like everybody else I’m sure) have a process in which we go through to scrutinize each RFQ quickly, as to limit our time and resources spent on even deciding to respond to an RFQ. I should point out, that CrossWind DOES respond to EVERY RFQ that we get. However, the response may not be a bid, but rather an email or phone call stating that we are NOT bidding on the RFQ and a reason why we aren’t going to bid.
Please let me explain a bit further, for any shop to bid a project, they literally must sit down visualize the entire manufacturing of a single part from start to finish. Assuming we have the capability to do the part, CrossWind takes into consideration the following when quoting:
- Material costs and availability Including shipping time (get quotes?)
- Tooling costs and availability Including shipping time (get quotes?)
- Setup time for machining 1 part (which is the same for 500 or 5000 parts) – this may require multiple setups depending on what delivery schedule the client is asking for.
- 3rd party vendors needed (heat treating, anodization, laser etching, passivation, etc.) Inc. shipping costs & process times (get quotes?)
- Cycle time of making 1 part (which requires working through physically machining 1 part, and then we extrapolate for each quantity tier bid)
- Any special handling, cleaning or assembly of each part
- Any special instructions (i.e. packaging) on RFQ
- Delivery schedule requested
- Qty requested (5,50,500,5000?) (R&D or Production?)
- Is there a middleman involved (sales rep or bidding website)?
- Is this just an RFQ to check their current vendor of these parts or is it possible an order will come out of it.
Given these considerations, CrossWind’s RFQ process involves several people, so I want to make sure I’m not wasting valuable resources on an RFQ that we can’t even complete or meet expectations as the RFQ is requesting.
I won’t bore you with the internal process to get from RFQ request to an actual quote, but just know that an accurate bid takes at least an 1-2 hours to accurately complete, once you’ve got it started. Which is at least 1-2 hours @ $0 revenue for any resources used during that time, and many times we are waiting for quotes BACK for the quotes for material, tooling, 3rd party processes, etc. So realistically, it’s 1-2 days before you get all the information together to put it in an RFQ response back to the customer.
So, why am I explaining this you ask? Because I’d like our readers out there, sending out RFQ’s to multiple vendors (shops) to see that it takes time to put together an accurate quote on our end, and sometimes we may not have the time to complete the quote, or the part may not be a good fit for us to make, or we may see that we can’t make the delivery schedule you are asking for.
I also want to point out that “Economies of Scale” really come into play in bidding on RFQ’s…in laymen’s terms, the higher the quantity we’re bidding the lower the pricing per part. We amortize the cost of the entire job over the quantity bid per tier. That’s why 25 parts may cost you $27/each, but 250 parts may be $10/each and 2500 parts may be $7/each. The longer we can keep your parts on the machine, they cheaper they get…job shops like CrossWind Machining don’t make any money, unless the machines are making parts!
Lastly, don’t be offended if we ask you to “Price Point” the part (What are you currently paying for it?). We sometimes can tell you instantly that either we can’t beat the current price, or it will be close to what you are paying now. And it’s not worth the time and resources on our end to go through the exercise of verifying what we already knew, and not worth wasting your time waiting for an RFQ response that doesn’t do you any good.
I also want to point out, that when responding to an RFQ in which we’ve never made a component, we are basing our quoted pricing on mostly estimates of some those considerations…mainly cycle time & setup time. Once we get the job, the cycle time and setup times may vary from our estimates. So, we always look at the first time making a component as a learning curve, and maybe the cycle time and/or setup time is different than our estimate. Even though we are already bid at a certain price, the NEXT time the same component is asked to be bid on we may change the pricing…either up or down.
I hope this gives you some insight into what it takes on our end to figure out not only how much to quote when asked to do so, but the process and resources that go into just getting an accurate quote back to you so that CrossWind doesn’t lose money, but also we meet all of our clients specifications and delivery times needed.
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There are distinct advantages and applications for both CNC & CNC Swiss machines, but they are very different processes. Choosing which precision machining process depends on the specific job. Let me see if I can summarize them here for you.
CNC Swiss Machining
Swiss-type precision machining provides a cost-effective way to produce components for medical and defense products such as dust cover pins and firing pins used in military rifles. These long, slender components feature a tolerance band of 0.0005 inch on the part’s diameter.
A Swiss-type lathe consists of a variety of turning machines that feed the stock through a guide bushing. This means the OD turning tool can always cut the stock near the bushing, and therefore, near the point of support, no matter how long the workpiece. The machine feeds the work out of the spindle and past the tool as it goes. This makes the CNC Swiss-type particularly effective for long and slender turned parts.
Advantages of Swiss Turning Process
The advantage of a Swiss turning process is that the material is supported close to the tools that are cutting, using a guide bushing that the bar stock is pushed thru and into the tools. This prevents deflection of the bar stock when using a conventional turning process. On many machines, the tools are only a few thousands from the face of the guide bushing.
Swiss-Style Distinguishers
- Swiss-style screw machine, running off bar stock, typically creates a cylindrical part
- A 12-foot bar with automatic bar loaders in which 15-20 bars can be placed and fed through the machine
- The tools are machining as the bar is pushed forward through a guide bushing
- There are often numerous tools and multiple axes that can be used to complete the part
- Swiss machining can deal with complex designs and complex parts can be machined to completion on one machine
- Small runs from 1,000 pieces to high-volume production can be done through Swiss machining
- Processes can include drilling, turning, milling, boring, knurling, and many special processes
Swiss turning is ideal for long parts and small-diameter parts under .125″.
Examples of Swiss Parts Are:
- Contacts used in connectors
- Watch parts
- Shafts
- Long medical devices and implants
- A variety of connecting components for aerospace and electronics
CNC Conventional Machining
The first CNC precision machines were built in the 1940s and 50s and became the workhorses of the modern machine shop. Motion is controlled along multiple axes, normally at least two (X and Y), and a tool spindle that moves in the Z (depth). The position of the tool is driven by motors through a series of step-down gears, in order to provide highly accurate movements, or in modern designs, direct-drive stepper motor or servo motors. Open-loop controls work as long as the forces are kept small enough and speeds are not too great. On commercial metalworking machines, closed-loop controls are standard and required in order to provide the accuracy, speed, and repeatability demanded.
Advantages of Conventional Turning
Conventional turning extends the material from the chuck/collet to the overall length of the part, and then tools will move into the bar. Conventional turning is better suited for short, large-diameter parts with very tight tolerances. Conventional turning is also best suited for larger parts with difficult materials.
CNC-like systems are now used for any process that can be described as a series of movements and operations. These include laser cutting, welding, friction stir welding, ultrasonic welding, flame and plasma cutting, bending, spinning, hole-punching, pinning, gluing, fabric cutting, sewing, tape and fiber placement, routing, picking and placing (PnP), and sawing.
Conventional Turning Distinguishers
- CNC machining is ideal for forgings, castings, plates, or blocks of steel
- The use of higher production, special fixturing, and palletizing systems are created to facilitate the volume efficiently
- Tool changers in the machine store multiple tools, and the machine picks a tool for the operation, puts it back, picks the next tool and repeats the process until the product is machined to a finished state
- Fixtures can hold any number of parts from approximately one to 40
Examples of Conventional Turning Parts:
- Fluid controls
- Castings
- Automotive
- Anything with a diameter larger than 1.5″
I hope this sheds some light on some of the differences between conventional CNC (Lathes) & CNC Swiss (Lathes) Machining - it certainly helped me really understand which is the best to use in certain applications.
Ken Smith
Quality Systems Director
CrossWind Machining
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One particularly notable change with ISO 13485:2016 is the addition of more explicit risk management requirements. Companies will be required to consider the risk associated with a device from conception through its use. Device makers must plan and implement corrective action when problems are detected. Risk management must be incorporated into every aspect of the quality management system.
Suppliers like CrossWind Machining that are ISO 13485:2016 certified will be well-positioned to suit the needs of device makers. Although ISO 13485:2016 certification is not the only criterion companies should use in selecting a supplier, it is certainly an important one. ISO 13485:2016 also now carries FDA compliance at the higher level than every before. Device makers are responsible for the risk their suppliers contribute to their products and certification to this standard is a signal a supplier is committed to mitigating risk. So, if you're supplies are mitigating risk at every step of the manufacturing process, it certainly limits the risk with the final medical device product. It is my opinion that only a small portion of the suppliers will follow through with the ISO 13485:2016 certification, and roll back to ISO 9000 guidelines which are NOT medical device specific (and extremely "loose"), thus leaving medical device manufacturers at a much higher risk by using those suppliers. Can you really afford that type of risk?
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